MY CIVILISED COUNTRY?
THE EVIDENCE PAGE

by Jacques More

This is a collection of pictures of documents that substantiate what is written in the main article.

This is a portion linked from the main text:


Police Interview with Jacques More 21st August 2007

https://youtu.be/v4XOiausBMg


1:16:19 long video with one fixed image. This is an audio only record.


The Full Transcript:


Complete verbatim Transcript of interview of Jacques More 21st August 2007
With DC Nigel Abbott at Croydon Police Station
[Before arrest and before any charge]

This interview is being tape recorded - I am Detective Constable Nigel Abbott - Attached to CID at Croydon Police Station
We are in an interview room at Croydon Police Station - There are no other police officers present - I am interviewing.
Please state your full name:

My name is Jacques More

And could you confirm your date of birth Jacques?

My.. I was born 11th March 1958

And what is your current address?

18 Rigby Close, Croydon, Surrey, CR0 4JU

Can I confirm that you have attended the police station voluntarily and as a result of myself arranging an appointment with you to attend at 6 o' Clock this evening.

Indeed this is so, yea.

The date is Tuesday the 21st August 2007 and the time is 18:27 …let me write that down…

I concur

I must remind you that you have the right to free and independent legal advice: You can speak to a solicitor in private at any time of the day or night and this advice is free. You can speak to a solicitor in person. If you do not want to speak to a solicitor in person, you can speak to them on the telephone. If you do not want legal advice or you want your solicitor present, the interview can be done and certain exceptions apply. They don’t apply here as you are not under arrest.
Do you want to speak to a solicitor?

No, I'm happy to discuss things without one, without an arrest

[2:00]
Okay, I just want to confirm, with you, that you realise you are not under arrest - You are entitled to legal advice and you are free to go. Do you understand?

I understand.

Before I begin the interview I would like to caution you. Now (I'm not).. Once I've done that caution I will ask you whether you understand that caution and I want an explanation from you just to make sure you realise you have the right to silence.

Okay,

That is, you do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence, if you do not mention when questioned, something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. That's a caution. Do you understand what that means?

Yes, I do.

Do you understand you have the right to silence?

Yes

Do you understand that you don't have to answer any of my questions?

Yes

… …
The next part - that is important - though, that it may harm your defence, if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. In other words when asked a question here, you reply with "no comment", if I was asking whether you had an alibi or not for instance and you went to court upon this matter at a later date and gave an answer to the same question in court - The court can take what they call an inference from your refusal to answer that question now. Now that may mean that, maybe, you, you've had a chance - didn't answer - You've obviously had time make a story up. That may be, that's what they think. That is a matter for the court - But, I am to point that out to you anything you do say may be given in evidence. This interview is being tape recorded. And if it is given in evidence - It will be given in the form of a written statement = And we call that a précis of the interview

Okay

Are you quite happy to continue?

Yes, I am

As I say, you have entered the station voluntarily. Erm, I am investigating an allegation of harassment made by Kelly Culverhouse who works at Unichem which is in Vulcan Way, New Addington - She's alleged that on numerous occasions you've harassed her since March 2007. Now first of all, do you know Kelly?

I know. Yes, Kelly, Yes, as a fellow employee at Unichem.

How long had you worked at Unichem?

Er… About 4 years.

And how long had you known Kelly?

About, maybe 3 months before March, at max: She used to be - I understand - On the evening shift and now was in the day time. She then moved to the dayshift, that’s when I first…

Okay. So which department does she work in?

Well, it's a big warehouse..

Right.

And, she's involved - as I understand it - in replenishing automatic machines as well as working in the fridge. My department involves working all over various places, so...

Alright, now, as I say, she’s made an allegation of harassment.
She states that some time. It was probably around the 7th March 2007, you approached and introduced yourself by saying "hello" - Can you remember that?

Er, I think, we, I approached her before that time. I think that week involved the final issues relating to her complaining.

Alright. She says that you asked her "If you are up to anything at the weekend?" - And she said, she replied "not much" and you started talking. Er… And you told her that you would be - you were going to write a book - and there was a detailed conversation about what you would do. You give her a sticker to advertise your web site. Which I believe you have some sort of web site on the internet.

Yes I do, yes.

And you asked her to check out the web site. Now, this was on a Friday. Do you remember that conversation?

I do remember. Yes, those two aren't directly related times. But, yes, those things have happened.

When did you talk to her then, about this matter?

Er.. There are separate incident when I asked her out, to when I gave her that sticker.
Giving her that sticker happened to be a time - I actually asked her what she was doing that weekend?

Yea.

And… Er, I think I was involved… It was during the shift - So there was a lot of people around. She was on the opposite side of the table. It's a controlled room - the fridge - because it is also the CD room. And you have to sign in and out because there are controlled drugs in there. And I was sign... - because of the amount of people there - I was signing the book and she was right opposite me, filling in a box. And I said "Are you doing anything at the weekend?"

[7:10]

And she said "no…" then she asked me, "If I was doing anything?" and I said, "I was probably going to see my mum and then writing a book": "O, you're writing a book?" And there was not really time for anything else. And so I just then gave her a sticker and said "here you go" and she said I haven't got a working computer at the mo - I'll take that…Thanks.

Yea. Was this, was this on a Friday then, was it?

That, yes, because it was asking about the weekend.

So on the Monday. What happened on the Monday? Afterwards? Cos, obviously, I'm making an assumption here, she didn't contact you or you didn't contact her over the weekend?

Correct, that is correct, yes.

So, on the Monday, what happened then - After that incident?

Erm, I'm not clear, on which days are which, I'm afraid - But I do remember a separate occasion when I'd gone in, and she was on her own, in the fridge room, when I asked her - you know - if she was interested in going out for a drink? That was another Friday, come to think of it. Because I now remember seeing her in the shift later that day where she wasn't actually in the fridge and she'd been allocated to do what's known as "Exceptions"
And that afternoon - the reason I remember that is because - she actually said to me "Actually, I've got plans with friends this weekend" and I said "O, that's cool! Have a good time with your friends" And then, I left.
Now, later that day, er, she.. you know, I was doing things on the automat. We have several sections of automatic machines which drop off the drugs onto the conveyor belt. And, I'm, my job is involved in data management which moves stock around into better positions. And so, Er.. I'd been allocated to, to, to move some stock on the automat during the shift. And.. Erm… Or, seek to - problems - which were on the automat during the shift. And she happened to be doing exceptions so, I remember that day she was not in the fridge.

Did you ever pass a note to her with your phone number on?

Yes - Well, there was a phone number on the sticker - in the first place.

Is that a home phone number or a mobile phone number?

The home - my, the way my phones work is, the mobile phone, er, is, diverts my landline phone number, so when you rang me, er, the other day, to make this appoint.. and I was in the car, you were using I assume, my home number.

I can't remember which one, but, er?

Because, er, and it would have diverted to me. And I had my hands free on, so that was…

So even though you give out.. it comes back to…

To the mobile, if I'm out, sort of home yes.

Out of home…

Erm.. If I can… Er… I do remember something that happened on the Monday after the Friday of the sticker.

10:00

If I can - And where she was - On the first part of the day - she, as I understand, her first task is to fill in the automat, until the orders come through for her to prepare in the fridge room - If I understand things right.
And, and, I've often seen her in that section of that, and in passing I said "Hi"
And she said to me… On that occasion - That was the Monday after the sticker Friday..

Yea, yea…

She said to me - I didn't actually ask her - She actually forwarded the information: "I put it on my wardrobe."

I see.

Erm… As if to say, I'm interested and look forward at that, at some point.

How old do you think, Kelly is?

Well, at the time, I had no idea of her age. I now know she is 19.

But, how old did you think at the time - You said "no idea", and you're obviously a bit of an older man?

Indeed, she's a young lady. I thought that perhaps: early twenties.

And you're… what, forty nine now?

I am indeed. Which is why - in my giving her a sticker - I … There is a, whole page on my web site, clearly mentioning my age and my birthday...

Right.

… And my background, what I'm about… And were she interested in chatting first…

Did you, did you have any intention to ask her out?

I did.

At the beginning?

At the beginning… Well, I wouldn’t have…

From the beginning, I mean?

Yes. To get to know her and see if she's interested, yes.

Yea.
11:32
Did you think nothing of the age group for ins… Age gap, for instance?

Well I did. In my initial thoughts before I ever spoke to her in that way, yes.

Yea.

And I questioned myself - you know, whether - you know, you know, the rights and wrongs: and, and felt, okay.

Right.

You know, there are numerous examples in society where that is normal…

Yea.

.. And right, you know.

Yea. You felt comfortable?

I would prefer someone slightly older, in a sense. But, the thing is, the way I operate, because I am a Christian, I didn't just think it through, I also prayed it through: And I felt… It was that way.

Alright. So, this is early stages - if you like - of chatting up? Is that a?

Yes, Indeed. And at no time had she said "no". Had she done so, I would have had no problem in withdrawing myself from approaching her, in any way. And it is… And it is that which caused me to see my in line manager because after I'd - basically - made three attempts, if you like. I went to see my in line manager and said to him "Look, I've had a chat with this girl, I don't really know her age, but I really can't read her properly, whether she's interested or not. She seemed to be interested, but… You know, because she'd said 'Yes, maybe' - in terms of going out for a drink…" And because she said she'd put the sticker on her wardrobe. And so I thought - Well, because there was no more after that - and you know, and no comeback, and it was time elapsing. I thought, well, I just need to have a chat with my in line manager. Just to make sure, that if she does say anything, she can be assured, that I am not trying to… stalk her or pressurise her. And at no time did I ever ask her…
I didn’t actually know her surname, I didn't know… I never asked for her number nor her address… I always think it's a girl's prerogative to give those things.

13:34
Did she say er, any words - like, in the point of going out - say the word "maybe" to you?

Yes, she said: "Yes, maybe"

PAUSE

That was while she was filling the automat in the morning…

PAUSE
13:54
She says that, after you approached her, on that time when she said "maybe" that she was, er…very shaken, by that incident, when you spoke to her, asking her out. I know she had to approach her line managers, who are Alan Featherstone and Jeanette Howell(s) - Do you know those two?

Er, Yes! Alan Featherstone is my in line manager. Jeanette is his, if you like, second in common. She is not actually working under them. Her in line managers are Warehouse people.

She said, what she did is she approached Alan, and she asked them to, er… speak to you, to inform you that, er:
"She did not want to encourage or welcome your advances" - Now, did they speak to you?

Alan Featherstone had a chat with me the next day. It was in fact the day after I…

What - what did he say?

Well, I had approached him the previous day…

Yea.

… Explaining this… my… my concern that I couldn't read this girl right - and just to play it safe, I thought I'd have a chat. And, in… on that occasion he then asked me. And I don’t know why he asked me this, he asked me "Had I been in trouble with the police before?"

Right.

Yea, I don’t know why he asked me this, but he did. And I mentioned at the time that I had been arrested before.

Right.

On the suspicion of attempting to abduct children.

Right.

And… But the… Si… The shame was… That he didn't give me the opportunity to give him the whole story. Because, in fact. I am not in any way - that way inclined.

No, I can confirm that you have not got a criminal record.

Yes. And.. And its that evening, as I was leaving from work. That was the day before, erm… he then had a chat… Er… He… I saw Kelly, with Jeanette on the way to Jeanette and Alan's office. This is at Two O' Clock - just the time to go home - Now that seemed unusual for me in that anybody that complains, does it in work time.
And that's… you know… I think… She was probably… I mean I don't know… My suspicion is, she may have been asked "Do you want to have a chat about Jacques" while she was leaving the building.

What was the outcome though of your chat with?

With Alan Featherstone?

Yea?

He said, "The lady in question which you spoke to me about yesterday has come to me and complained. And basically Jacques you're to, you know, Er.. you know. She's said, He told me she had a boyfriend.
He said to me "The workplace is not a place for romance" - And things like that. And… Which I thought was a weird thing to say. Ermm, and, basically it's a no go area. So… Erm… He didn't say much more than that.

What was your reaction to that?

It was okay, if that was her wishes. That's fine.

17::12
She then goes on to say er… Later that week on a Friday - She was walking in the fridge area. She turned around, as she did so … She saw you, walking towards her. You came up to her and said "Do you have any plans for tonight?"
Do you remember asking her that?

No, I did no ask her that, at all, after Alan Featherstone̷…

She says that she said:: I'm not sure, that you said "maybe we can go for those drinks?"

That was, that occasion of her… of that happening, is the earlier mention I made to you… about asking her that in the fridge.

So, what' we're saying is that, the talk with Alan.

Huh Huh…

Occurred after this incident?

Indeed.

Right. Alright. She said it… it was before that. But… That's… Er… You know, its a matter for disagreement.

Well… That... I mean… My conscience would be very un… It would have been wrong of me to have gone… To have done that.

Okay.

You know. I didn't do that. That… That just never happened - The only occasion I have had to do… at work, since the complaint is to say "Good Morning", those kind of things, in person.

Well, she says she again spoke, went straight away to speak to Wendy… Is it Catter…? Another work colleague. Er.. in fact, that was just a work colleague… Er…. And then again, she went to… To see… Rachel?

Rachel Hughes.

And again she went again to speak to Alan and Jeanette, about this particular incident. So that's twice now, she's seen senior management putting up a complaint, if you like, about your behaviour. You are saying though, that you've only been spoken to on one occasion. Is that right?

Well no, I've been spoken on two occasions by Alan Featherstone. The second one regarding somebody called Billy… Er… Under… somebody… Er… I don't know the surname for sure. I have got it in my records here.

So, Alan didn't speak to you on two occasions, only one occasion?

No. I first went to him. The next day…

You went to him… but as a result…

And then he spoke to me the first time to warn me, to say that she was... And then he spoke to me again on a separate occasion regarding a gentleman called Billy.

Right, I see. So nothing to do with Kelly on that…

Correct. I made no… I made no approaches to Kelly to ask her out in any way following that first warning.

Yea.
20:00
Did you approach Kelly in the warehouse after these incidents with a note… Er… Which appeared to ask whether she liked rock climbing or salsa dancing?

No, that actually happened on the day I saw Alan Featherstone the first time. I explained it to him. He asked me what was on the note. I told him…

When you say the first time. This is when you approached him...?

That is Correct.

Or, the day after?

No, no. On the day I approached him I said to him: I've also given her a note. He asked me what was on that note. I told him clearly what was on that note. And then the next day he showed me the note because it had been handed over to him the night before.

Right.

Now, If there is anything you remember, that I don’t have to jog your memory, please, please tell me…

Yes, well yes, definitely. What really, surprised me. I was quite shocked about, actually. Was on the day… Em… that I was first cautioned. On the day after I first had a chat with Mr Featherstone. I saw Kelly enter the warehouse. And…I think it… it may be… it may be that next day, or the day after… I saw Kelly.
So the first time… we see each other - just the two of us in the warehouse, seeing each other, if you like:
And she was really frightened of me, and I just couldn't understand why. Subsequent to various things that have happened, I now understand why. And… And… We can go into that later if you like.

Right. Er…
21:41
Did anybody tell you - probably asking whether Jeanette or Alan - Did they tell you that Kelly did not want anything to do with you at work and had no interest in you whatsoever and that she had a boyfriend?

I was told she had a boyfriend. I was told she was not interested in me - to be, you know, that way inclined. I wasn't told that I couldn't, you know, say "Good morning", that kind of thing.

Right. But would you, at that point. You must have… Alarm bells must have rung in your head, to go, hang on, I'm obviously annoying her now, or not?

Well, yea, I mean, I can't see that I was, because, but, obviously thats,

You can't, but do you think…

Yes, obviously, and I respected that, I didn't actually, you know, erm…I…… apart from saying morning in passing, I've not said any, you know…

I mean, she does go on to say, that she would try and ignore you as she walked passed and you would smile and say hello quietly as you passed.

I do that with everyone, that's the trouble.

Right. And she also said that on occasion she would notice you staring at her.

Well, I wouldn't. No. I wouldn't agree with that. In the sense that… In fact, quite the opposite. In that, I remember clearly having two days off work after the 11th March which was a Sunday. Because my birthday's on the Sunday, and so… I was trying to get… Anyway, on my return from that, Erm… I was er… deliberately trying not to look her way. And I couldn't, because of where I was standing, I had… You know… It was… She was right there, and she was smiling at me. So, you know…I… I just thought…O okay…

But, what sort of smile? Some people smile and then…

Yes, indeed, you… I… it's subjective. You can't always tell, so, you know, I can't…

But, do you agree at this point then your, your presence, if you like, with her is obviously upsetting her, would you agree to that, at this point, or not?

At that point. Yes, during that… during the period of time̷ What I subsequently found out, and I understand why, she would be frightened of me, is because I was told, she was told and others were told by… Er… via Alan Featherstone's office, cos that's where the source came from, that I'd been involved in… with children.

Right.

…In some way. And it was̷ And obviously, would frighten anyone. Erm… And it made sense of the ways people started to… Er̷ you know, give me the cold shoulder, or (send me) to Coventry. Actually the whole atmosphere in one particular instance… And I just thought: Actually, what's going on here?

Is this? Let's try and get a date on all this then.

Sure.

Are we talking early to mid March now, still?

This began to happen - This kind of atmosphere and thing. From the day… From the day after I first spoke to Alan Featherstone.

Right. Alright. Could you not take note of that as a signal? To say, right, no more contact?

I am talking about the general atmosphere.

Atmosphere… Alright.

And.. And… So, yea, I didn't, as I said to you earlier: I made no approaches to Kelly from that morning onwards to ask her out or anything. Er̷ It would have been wrong, you know. I mean…

Did you send her a letter at all?

I sent her parents a letter via a work colleague and I've written her two letters which happened in July.

[PAPER SHUFFLING]
Erm… The first letter is dated 27th March.

That is to her parents. To Mr and Mrs Culverhouse.

Why did you send that letter?

I sent them that letter that I was very concerned of what was going on and that basically both Kelly and myself were victims of an internal political agenda. To demonstrate that I quoted the example of what happened with Billy. And I explained my position and the way I felt about, you know, relationships between boys and girls: I wished I had heard it from her directly, to say "no", but in effect I was, you know…

Can I just confirm…

Yes

That this is a copy of that letter dated 27th March?

I recognise it fully, yea.

That is an exhibit of what we call KEC2 which Kelly's exhibited.

Yea, that's fine.

That is a copy.

Yes, that's fine.

Yea?

I have a further copy if you wish.

And your explanation for this is, trying to set the record straight?

Yes well, there are special circumstances regarding this letter occurring at all. Er we̷I need to talk about Billy. In order to set the… the… the space for that, if you like, if I may?

Yea, I mean̷ Just before you do that, did you ask Billy whether Kelly was a local girl?

Yes indeed.

Why did you do that?

Well, to find out if her parents were local in the event that I had the opportunity to share my concerns of why should she be so frightened and why things are going on.

And where was this letter sent to?

It wasn't sent to them, it was given to a family friend of the Culverhouses, who works at Unichem, called Jean Erm… Hence the Jean mentioned on there.

O yea. Okay, so at this point you didn’t know an address or anything like that?

Correct. I didn't find out an address until July: In July.

So when.. You talk about this other guy, Billy?

Billy, yes.

Is it… Dangerfield .. is that his name?

O that sounds right, yes, yes?

And when did you speak to him?

Well, that would have been a few days before this letter.

So, late March we say?

Yes, indeed. I think it's the same week as that happened.

Okay.

And what happened was we were on a tea break and I happened to ask, you know, did he know if Kelly was a local girl or not. Er… He didn't know. And I didn't think any more of it. Erm… The thing is I… Rachel Hughes who was mentioned earlier. I had noted. Because I had seen her go with Jeanette to that first er… complaint, if you like, from her, Erm… I approached her, and asked her, if perhaps she was related to Kelly, you know, or even her mother, cos I.. I didn't know. And that was like a day or two after I had been warned by Alan Featherstone. And because I… There was such fear and reaction to all this, I just wanted to make sense of it and explain to her, Look! You know, where I was coming from. Which is basically what this does anyway. But, erm… The circumstances regarding this is important because effectively I.. It would never have been written, er… had it not been for the fact that the Unichem management. Erm… have not followed their procedures and̷ and grievances and things. The very day after I talked with Billy, I was called in to Alan Featherstone's office. That was the last meeting with Alan Featherstone. And in which he told me that: He said to me that: "Billy had told Kelly"

Yea.

"Kelly had told them - and told… you know, complained again" Basically what he was telling me.

Right.

And I said to him… Er… And because I didn't think I had done anything wrong at the time, actually my mind was blank. And I said "Well, I apologise. You know, I can't remember why I was…". Cos I… had I done something wrong I'd have made up a story or something, you know. And in fact, actually my mind went blank when he asked me that. And when I went to do the job I was to do that day, I remembered, what̷ why I had asked Billy. And I had dropped it, because he didn't know. It was just on the off chance, like with Rachel. They knew… So I… they could know that… All this fear is unnecessary, you know. Erm… And erm… And so what happened is the day after, I happened to be working with Billy in the same area, and I asked him - I said to him: "Look! Hey Man, I have no problem you telling Kelly, but you never knew why I asked youŝ And he suddenly reacts and says "I never told Kelly!" he says to me. I thought: "Well, who did you tell?" He said, "Well, A supervisor asked meŝ And then he was too frightened…

BEEP

Is that the end of the tape?

Yea, just finish what you were saying. We've about a minute and half of time left.

So, he said to me… so he… and asked "Well, who asked you?" and he said he was too frightened to tell me who the supervisor was who'd asked him about the conversation he and I had.

Okay, I'm just gonna stop the interview there to change the tape.

Sure.

Er… The date is still the 21st August 2007 and the time on my watch is 18:57 hours.

32:20 [2nd tape]
This is a continuation of the interview with Jacques More. The date is Er.. Tuesday the 21st August 2007 and the time on my watch is 19:00 hours. I continue and am going to caution you that you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court and anything you do say may be given in evidence. Er… Can you just confirm that…

My name is Jacques More

Good

Er.. I was born the 18th March 19.. Sorry the 11th March 1958 - And my address is 18 Rigby Close, Croydon, Surrey.

Can you confirm also that during the changing of the tapes that we did not discuss this matter?

That is correct. Yes.

Right, we were just talking about Er… Mr Dangerfield.

Correct?
In fact you had spoken to him?

Yes

And he stated to you that he hadn't told any… Hadn't told Kelly, but had told…?

A supervisor.

A supervisor called Alan.

No. No, no. He did not give me the name of the supervisor. He was frightened to tell me who the supervisor was.

Alright. Alright. Er..

Now, I then didn't do anything with that because I wanted to seek𔅽. I was quite angry about that. Because, obviously, Alan had lied to me.

Okay. Now this is the 27th March thereabouts now?

No, no, we are talking about a couple of days before that.

Right. But now, we've gone to the 27th March where you've written a letter to give your side of the story. What happened in the workplace at this point regarding your position - has anything happened?

I don’t understand the question.

Were you suspended?

No, er… the day of the suspension was a couple of hours after I gave that letter to Jean.

Right. It is dated the 27th. So, is it the same day that you were suspended?

Emm. It was… It was… It I can't remember if it was either the Wed…Er…

Jacques More diaries…
I'm taking out a folder from my… er… briefcase in which I'm looking up the paperwork. Everything is in date order here so…. The 27th March is a Tuesday.

Right. It was on Wednesday the 28th March that I was suspended and a couple of hours before I was suspended I gave this letter to Jean to pass on to Mr and Mrs Culverhouse.

It is dated the 27th which is a Tuesday but in actual fact you handed it to…

Yes, because I typed it up the night before.

… Jean on the 28th?

Correct. Now, I need to mention what happened on the 27th. If I may?

Yep.

Because I'd learned that Alan Featherstone had lied to… to me about Billy telling Kelly.

Yep.

And because I was still very concerned about the fear, I put two and two together that the wrong story had been informed Kelly about me. And so…

When you say the wrong story, is this relating to this arrest?

Yes.

Right. Okay.

I didn't know that at the time, but I now know that is for certain. Erm… And what happened… So… So what happened is… The company procedure in regards to problems with your in line manager is to talk to the branch manager.

Yep.

So I went to reception on three occasions on the 27th to ask for Mr… For Mike Tipple to arrange to see me. Er… He wasn't in the building till early afternoon. And on my last occasion at reception at quarter to Two, Wendy at reception said to me "He's now in the building, talking with Alan Featherstone in his office. I said, this is a very important matter. Erm... And, of course, as I mentioned earlier, because of my suspicion that he had been verbally bullied by a supervisor, I said "Tell him its so serious, I am contemplating going to the Police, not knowing that's a criminal matter or not, if he won't ring me." And I said "Can he ring me at home because we finish work at Two." That was a quarter of an hour later: Two O Clock. Erm… He never rang and by Nine o' Clock that evening I decided Okay … Er… I will write a letter to Kelly's parents.

Yea. Got in on the Wednesday you handed in to Jean.

I actually spelt it wrong it's J.E.A.N She told me that later.

Er… So…

And then at 10:10AM that morning - on the 28th of March I was walked out of the building.

Alright. Ermm, Kelly states that that letter made her angry and upset.

Yes, that is in her statement.

When you say her statement, have you seen a statement on that.

Yes, have you not a copy of that statement?

I have got a copy… of a… So I am not going to refer to that in a moment.

Okay

Erm… Because that was an internal disciplinary hearing.

Of an investigation at the time. Yes, indeed.

Er.. Can I confirm though, when you were at that… this hearing you were cautioned or anything like that?

What do you mean by caution?

Like I cautioned you "You did not have to say anything" when you went to this investigation hearing, did you receive any explanation as to your rights, etcetera?

Ermm. Well only in terms of… Of the.. mm of the process, you know.

Were your hearing rights explained to you, etecetera, etcetera?

I'm not fully understanding the… What, for example?

I'm just trying to… Er.. Like, I'm interviewing you now in a formal atmosphere, if you like.

Yes?

I cautioned you by telling the entitlements, your rights, etcetera, etcetera. When you get interviewed at work in a disciplinary matter, there are similar procedures.

I mean, I was told that…

Were these procedures explained to you?

Yes, some of them were, definitely. I mean, like, for example, that you are entitled to a representative to join you.

Yes.

That kind of thing.

So, it was a formal interview?

Yes.

Okay.

In that sense.

You were happy with that?

Yes, indeed, yes. Yes, I… I wanted things… the truth to come out.

Okay. I just said that Kelly felt that this letter made her angry and upset. I mean what… Er… Do you understand why she felt like that?

Well, now that I know that she had been told about things wrongly, yes, of course I do.

So, you've now been suspended. This is the end of March.

Yes.

Er… Well, after that what did you do?

I, Well, on the very day I was suspended I contacted the Company Secretary.

Okay.

Because I, on… at the same time as writing the letter to Mr and Mrs Culverhouse I looked on the internet the website of our company: Alliance-Boots Plc and they had a whistle blowing procedure. Of which there were a number of options. One of which is to contact the Company Secretary. Now, my intent was, if Mike Tipple who had already refused to see me, since he had the opportunity to ring me, Em.. Was still not going to do so on that Wednesday, when I got home on the Wednesday, my plan was to then contact the Company Secretary. Because I already knew er… that er… Mike Tipple er𔆚 had issues with me in the past and therefore, you know, he may have felt uncomfortable to̷ to do things right.

On the point of view of Kelly though. Had you contacted Kelly? Er… This is the end of March. You'd been suspended. For instance did you contact Kelly in April?

No. Not in May, not in June, the next contact with Kelly was when I went to her home on the 27th July.

What was that?

27th of July.

She spoke in her statement it was Thursday the 19th of July.

My apologies. As I've said, I wasn't sure that… Yes, that sounds more like it. In fact, I've got it ..

If I said 3:30, about 3:30.

Yes, that would be about (that I reckon)… I asked for her help...

How did you find out her address?

Well, the timing of that was that by… by… as I said several months had elapsed. I'd been… There had been two investigatory meetings, two disciplinary meetings - which turned out to be more investigatory meetings again - and erm… then a dismissal, and er… and then an appeal - an appeal hearing. And then this, I had the letter from the manager dealing with the appeal and I was just so flabbergasted. Because my appeal was that first hand witnesses should be asked questions. Everything that had been given was inaccurate and false. Not everything, but a good portion of it, and I appealed: Look, you need to talk to these particular people and ask them these questions, and you will get the right answers. Because effectively Alan Featherstone I mentioned and others are covering up that they had given this story of my arrest to everybody.
And erm, er…And I said, to prove that, you need to ask these people these questions. And they didn't do that. So I was quite upset. So my process was to see who I could talk first hand, because if I'd just replied to him, it would make no difference at all. So on that day that I came to see her: I didn't know if she would be there or not.
It could have been her parents at the door. I went to the library. And there is obviously a record there because you have to sign in. I looked at the electoral roll for New Addington to find out where they lived.

The electoral rolls are on computer?

No, its all fully printed out: Its all printed out. It took me about… about approximately half an hour.

Did you not realise though, that's nearly three months after: April, May, June, four months after approximately..

Huh, Huh.

… That you'd been told to stay away from her… … It resulted in your being suspended from work…

Well, no, it didn't.

There was a four months process of you going through the investigative phase of your suspension and then in July you decide to go to the library, find out where she lives. And what - Was you hoping to go and chat to her to…

Well, I was hoping her parents would be at the door, and then obtain, you know, obtain permission to talk with her and obtain first hand evidence. And basically er… Biggy… you know, not least of which, for example, did Billy talk to her or not.

Can't you see though, that your presence, turning up on her doorstep, would cause her to panic?

Well, according to Alan her father, whom I saw the next Monday: she said - his words were "She was surprised- and… and…

All I'm saying it says in her statement er… she was panic stricken when you turned up. She says that you said er… "How are you?" And she said "Yea, what are you doing here?" You said something like "I just want to talk" She can't remember all of the conversation.

Okay.

She says she was tried to look for her neighbours. She was shaking and panicking. I mean… did you get the impression that she was shaking and panicking?

Not at all, because Um.. her brother came by, I said "Hello", he said "Hello", he walked in. If she'd made any indications to him or me that she was… you know̷

Well, she says that she made indications to him, although he's obviously a young boy. Erm…

I understand he's 18.

He's her younger brother I believe.

Yes, Umm.

You started to go on about work and whether Alan and Jeanette had influenced her, is that right? Did you say that?

No, I don't recall that specific, but I do recall is to ask her if she's willing to help me.

Alright.

And then she said "Yes" and then… We did talk about like, you know, because there was her dog there, what was her dog's name. And she said "Bobby". And I said ermm𔆚 She asked me how I got hold of the address. I explained to her, I went to the library and I went to the electoral roll. And erm… I explained… that, you know, I had been… you know, I had tried the proper avenues through work to try and get things sorted… But there were not … You know, that I was being lied about on a consistent basis… And erm… And so I needed first hand witnesses and would she be willing to help me? She then said in (parting) "Okay, what can I do?"

Yea.

And I said "Can you please can you ask Jean if she was… erm erm what she did with the letter when… on the day that I was suspended: did she hold on to it or, and give it to you later that day or did she tell somebody about it because the managers are saying that that is the reason they suspended me when in fact I don't believe that is the case.

Alright, she is still panicking when her brother comes past - so she says - and you eventually give her another letter. Is that right?

I gave her a copy of this letter which is the story of my arrest.

Yes.

Because by this time, if she hadn't… if this hadn't been posted - as requested - by Mike Tipple. This letter is dated the 28th May 2007 and written to the Branch Manager requesting him to put it on the notice board. Here's a copy.

Don't you think though, that the fact you turned up on her doorstep is gonna cause her to feel she is being harassed by you?

Well, she obviously was surprised. And I was surprised that, you know, it was her at the door.

Yea.

I didn't know, you know, who to expect who was going to be there. Erm… I, you know, wanted to make progress with first hand witnesses. I was totally prepared for her to say "Sorry, I don't want to talk with you. I don't want to see you, anything" Erm, but then again she didn't. Erm…

Do you think, she's a well… I mean, to me she's a well mannered girl.

Yes, I think so.

I wouldn't say she was a confident girl. But, if someone turns up on your doorstep, it is quite intimidating to actually say to somebody "Go away". Most people would engage in a conversation and hopefully, within that conversation, er… make it clear but in a general sort of way, that you𔆚 you're not interested.

Yea, well, she didn't give me that impression at first. At the end of it when she then backed off towards her door: Now, that's okay, fine. And she said she would help, you know, I mean, er.. I trusted what she said.

Would you think - I don't know how to answer this - But, er… sometimes people agree into what…
In order to protect themselves.
In order to protect themselves to get the person to go away. [She later, no(?)]

That's always possible. I didn't read it like that. I just trusted what she said.

Anyway, this is the date - it was there - Thursday the 19th July.

Yes.

So…

So I then…

What happened then?

What happened then, I waited several days to get her the opportunity to talk to Jean, her parents, etcetera. I thought it would have been wrong of me to pressurise and come back immediately the next day or even the weekend, so I decided to go for the following Monday. That's when I met her father at her door and we had a chat.

The following Monday would be, it's the 30th July, is that correct?

Now if that was the 19th, no, it wouldn't be the 30th.

Erm…

The 19th is when I first saw her.

That would be the 23rd of July.

Yes, it would.

Monday the 23rd.

Yes, it would.

So you went round there. Why did you go around again?

Because she promised to help. I took her word on trust. Had she…

Are you… say… You can only say… You must be misreading her. You're taking her on face value, is that right?

Yes.

Okay. Right. So you go back round on Monday the 23rd.

Yes, round about 3 o' Clock.

So who are you hoping to speak to then?

Well, I'm hoping that she's there and has found out something from Jean.

Right.

Which she had promised me to do.

Okay, [?] What happened with the conversation with the father then?

Alan was there, and he chatted. And he was very curt, but polite and said he didn't want me to come back again and said why haven't you gone through the process of doing that… and I said Well I have, and that's the problem: they'd been lying about me and I need to get first hand evidence to demonstrate that to the senior managers of the company. And, erm… I said to him look, Kelly had never said no to me, and I need to hear that from her, if indeed, she's genuinely not interested whatsoever. And he said to me that he understood that. Erm… You know, that I should feel that way. And I said to him Well, I'm not sure that you do, because I hardly know you, but I appreciate you saying it. And then he said, well basically I don't want you to come to this door again, and so I said, Okay I respect that, and we shook hands.

Alright. You see, that's… That's probably his way of handling somebody at the door he doesn't want there. His way of dealing with it.

But, something also happened before we shook hands I said to him, Look, I have a letter for Kelly.

Yea.

A personal letter. Do you want me to post it to her or do you want me to give it to you to give to her? And he said "I'll take it" So, I sealed the envelope because it was personal and gave it to him to give to her. That was the 23rd July.

Right. The letter.

A hand written letter.

Is this a copy of it? I am showing exhibit KEC3?

Yes, it is. That is the first time I had written that… in that way to her. It is basically a plea for her to say.. yea or no.

Well, I think she's made quite clear to you, back in March, that she… via her supervisors there that she doesn't want to go out with you. But you haven't accepted it, have you? [?] That's why you still need. It appears to me you still live in hope that one day you may go out with her.

Yes, yes.

Since this letter of the 23rd of July

Yes indeed, but always out of respect for her privacy and her making her own decisions which is as I said to Alan, I would like to hear that from her. And he agreed. And, as yet, I have yet to hear that from her directly.

The reason she can't say she's… Well, she believes she's being harassed, by receiving this letter and the other letters and your turning up at her doorstep.

That is my first letter to her.

Yes, I said that is the first letter to her, but she's received… she's received letters from you, previous letters, hasn't she?

Well, that's to her parents and…

To her parents. Okay. You turned up at her doorstep. Whilst at work, er𔆚 You've started the chatting up phase to invite her out. You haven't been successful. She's made it clear to her supervisory staff there that she doesn't want to know, and yet you're still here on the 23rd July writing this letter so you want…

My, my concern is…

… pressing your opinions.

I can see you saying it that way, but if you include within that the fact that she has been made to think that I am a… an evil person.

Yea. Going back to that…

The story of the arrest

The story with Dangerfield and all the rest of it.

The story of the arrest.

Yea.

And the story that I'm a dangerous person. Erm. Which is wrong. Erm as demonstrated by my letter to her parents.

But, can't you see though, by keeping this going on, that it would start to harass her. Make her feel that she is being harassed by somebody she doesn’t want to go out with that stretches back all the way back to March. Well… Can't you see that?

You can see it that way if you want to. I don't see it that way because I feel clearly she's been erm… influenced badly and wrongly. And my indications er… were, you know, the very fact that after her complaints you know, she had given signs of being smiling and friendly and all that, whereas I was not looking for that and except for the moments that she also showed that she was really frightened, which made no sense at all, and, and, you know. Its during the course of the investigations I was then told that they’d made a petition at work.

Yea.

All related to this evil story being spread around ermm which is groundless. And erm

Okay. But, couldn’t you have seen that at this point…

And so, obviously due to this influence, this girl has been made to… not given the true freedom to choose, Okay.

How do you know that she hasn't chosen? This is my point…

Well, as I say…

In the big wide world, once you've been rebuffed. Okay you might try…

Yes, but she hadn't said no, She hadn't said no to me.

But, you've been… You've already been told not to bother her at work

Yes, which I didn't.

Here you are turning up on her doorstep in July, 4 months later.

Well, when I spoke with her at the door, there was no personal, Er… matters discussed in terms of that letter which you have there.

No, I accept that, but its…

It was just to do with work, and everything… But I felt it would be honest of me to say where I'm coming from and where my hope is. And, but that, and there is a plea there as expressed to her father, that I need to hear from her. No, if that's the case or, is there a hope?

Right, but…

That's the where I'm coming from. If you don't think that is erm… reasonable, fine that's your… My position is…

Well, I don't think it's reasonable.

But, I've not pursued her, you know, to tell me that following that except…

It does appear to me that you are pursuing her to hear it from her lips that she doesn't want to go out with you, is that not right?

Yea, I would like to hear it from her lips. But, I wouldn’t say I am pursuing her anymore than, you know…

You must realise even now. Say now in this interview that she does not want to go out with you. Do you realise…
In terms of… She has made allegations to the police about you harassing her. So you must realise at this point, in this interview.

Well I also recognise… You see, if I am to take on board, at face value the things she said to me at the door.

Yea.

Which I did. Okay? Then I can only, you know, if she's honest with me with what she says to me at the door then I can only think, reasonably, that she's being influenced to make a report about me, rather than actually…

She's made this report of her own free will because of the effect its having on her. That's why she's made it. I haven't even spoken to her father or anyone like that. I've just spoken to her.

Okay.

So, you have had an effect on her.

Okay.

She, when you went round to see her dad, she was on holiday.

I didn't know that. Right. I had no idea.

That's why.. er… she came back off holiday… That ain't right. Because you attended on Monday the 23rd of July.

That is correct.

You wrote another letter which was in the post on Wednesday the 25th of July, is that right?

That is correct.

Where you write her with some sort of rock climbing day…

If she's interested. And if her brother with her, if she wants to…

See, that's a second letter going…

See, I had no idea, as you say, she was on holiday. And, I…Erm…

It just seems you've…

I… I wanted to hear… to give her an opportunity. Cos, she'd said before "Yes, maybe" and not "no" and if she was interested in just getting to know me, there, is an opportunity to do so.

But, surely you must have been… I mean…

No, I hadn't heard from her. I did not hear… Her father hadn't told me that she'd gone to you, the police, at all.

No, she hadn't gone to the police at that time. She didn't go on the 23rd, You know... She went to the police when she got back off the holiday, with the two letters. And came̷

But, how come this is dated the 20th July?

Because that is a letter sent by the police just warning you about their behaviour.

On the 20th July.

Yes, that's correct. That is a police letter from Detective Sergeant Flynn.

Correct. And so, you know, this letter tells me, you know, you "received a complaint from Miss Kelly Culverhouse", so that would have been according to that date either on that date that I came to see her at the door or the day after - which is the 20th.

She's made the complaint on or around the 20th of July, I don't know exactly.

And on the 23rd is when I saw her father, and he never said this had happened. Had he done so I would not…

Well, this is what I mean. He wouldn't… People deal with people on their doorstep…

Indeed, but because he allowed me to give him the letter at the doorstep, implied to me maybe it was okay for me to write a letter.

Right, its that last letter, what was all that about, about the rock climbing?

As I've just explained an opportunity if she was interested.

Well, obviously she wasn't so erm - There's two letters here it seems from Kelly: one's marked "Kelly" the other one's marked "Kelly with the address on": is that the two letters that were sent?

Well, I would have said the first one was given to Alan and the second one went in the post.

The second… Which is the first one?

That would have been that one, yes.

The second one is with the address.

Yes, that is correct. Cos, I can't then go to door again and heed Alan's warning not to be there, you know, so, you know, I respected what he said.

She's reported this matter to the police on Thursday the 19th of July.

Okay. Alright… Now this letter from the police has an envelope postmarked the 25th of July.

25th of July is?

The Wednesday in question of the last letter sent.

So you're saying you received it.

No. It was postmarked the 25th. I received it on the 26th.

You received it on the 26th… Which day is the 26th?

The 26th would be the Thursday…

[BEEP]
So the 26th. Let me just check my diary, is...?

And I rang the police station and spoke to Miss Tovey at 9:12AM

Officer Tovey.

And I explained about the letters which were either handed over and the conversation with Mr Culverhouse and the one that was in the post. Since then there has been no contact from me whatsoever.

Okay, let's stop the interview now to change the tape. So, the date is still Tuesday the 21st August 2007, time on my watch is 19:31 hours.
[Change of tape - BEEP]
This is a continuation of the interview with Jacques More. The date is Tuesday the 21st August 2008 the time on my watch is 19:35 hours. I'll continue the interview. I'll caution you again that you do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence. Just confirm that we've a.. er… changed the tapes and we haven't discussed the case in between the changing of the tapes.

That is correct. My name is Jacques More date of birth is 11th March 1958 er… I live at 18 Rigby Close and we're in 2007.

Right. So, we've just been discussing, er… The last letter that you sent to er…

Kelly on the 25th of July.

Kelly on the 25th and you've mentioned the fact that you received the letter̷

On the 26th…

… From the police on the 26th. This letter from the police was dated 20th I believe.

Correct. And the postmark on the envelope clearly shows the 25th.

When you received that letter, what did you think?

I… I… Immediately thought Er… O dear, there's a date discrepancy here of a big gap and I need to contact the Off… er.. the… Brian Flynn immediately to inform him of the letters that I had sent since that date of the letter. And so I rang the number on the letter.

Yea.

And Miss Tovey answered the phone at 9:12AM and er… I explained to her about these letters and the chat with Mr Culverhouse on the Monday and explained that er… that there's been nothing at all… And encouraged her to talk to Mr Culverhouse to explain why er… these letters were sent since that date.

Okay. You gave an explanation that there is one in the post, I believe, is that right?

That would have been this one, the 25th.

Yea.
Which is the one which you… we mentioned earlier and which you pointed out.
Yep, yep. Er.. And upon receipt of that, I'll call it a warning letter from the police

Yes indeed, yes

What was your reaction - What did you do?

Well, as I said I telephoned…

No, besides the telephone.

In regards to…?

What has that told you?

Well, it told me that I should not contact and be in touch with the Culverhouse family whatsoever.

Okay. The reason we've taken er… this investigation further, the actual Harassment Act points to in fact on two or more occasions where a course of behaviour by a person: er… where there's been two instances of that person…

Following a warning, you mean?

No, not following a warning. The Act says that er… which is what I am trying to explain. In order for the act or the offence to be complete there needs to be two recorded evidences of, meetings if you like, or upon receipt of a letter or some internal endorsement, there just needs to be two occasions which can be deemed as being a course of behaviour which would lead to that person believing they were being harassed.

Well, I understood that was so, once one had been given a warning or been told clearly by the person themselves, no, they are not interested.

The policy that the police has - to a certain extent - is that if there has been one er… harassment that has been recorded, to nip it in the bud, they send a letter. Now, if it comes to light that there has been more than one occasion, even though that letter has been sent, then the matter is further investigated.

Hence today, Okay.

Why we are here today.

That is fair enough.

So do you understand that?

Yes I do.

In fact, it doesn't matter that you have had a letter.

Huh, huh.

The legislation is quite clear its two occasions.

Well, you know, my understanding is following a warning. But er.. as soon as this warning occurred I explained by telephone what I had done since er… the date on this, this envelope… er. On this… Sorry on the letter itself of the 20th July. And, er, as I say, I've done nothing more since.

Okay. Now, you𔅿 Are you unemployed now?

I am.

As a result of being sacked from Unichem?

Indeed.

Are you trying to get your job back at all?

I am.

From Unichem, is that right?

Yes I am. I would like that.

You do realise, obviously, that Kelly is still working there?

Yes, I was told by… in one of those meetings… investigatory meetings by the manager of HR - Mrs Carol Butler - that "no one has said she's unsafe" and indeed… I… you know, the… the reasons for the sacking given are, not relating to wrongful doing on my part, but instead… Allow me to quote you the exact wording of that, if I may… "Some other substantial reason": And basically because the story's been made up the… Er… the wrong story of my arrest. And there is a petition of people making up… Er…Stirring up an atmosphere at work which er… told of me being an evil person. Em… they feel it's… would be unsafe for me to return there because of that. And, er…Those were the various reasons given. And really, the truth is, that as I said to them, Look, if a text has been given out of context to make these things happen, you need to give them the context - to tell the truth - And to make it safe. You should make it safe for everyone there. And, em… and effectively my contention is, that the in line manager in question - Mr Alan Featherstone - has done er, you know, gross misconduct in his affairs, and… Er… And at the first… probably at first, he thought, you know, I was guilty of some… of that… you know… Having been arrested in the first place all those years ago in 2002, which in fact is not the case.

Alright. Do you think though that your behaviour towards Kelly, as I've explained the legislation to you, do you believe you've harassed her?

Well, within the explanation of the Act as you give it, I can only agree that, if that is what the Act says, yes. But, in my understanding, it is after a warning or if she had said no to me, you know, then yes, er…

When you say understanding. Where do you get that understanding?

Because I have been reading up on the Act.

Okay.

Just answering that point: About the fact, it is perfectly legal in this country for an Officer to arrest someone who is totally innocent just to find out some information from them without a warrant, which seems to me ludicrous, when they… if they are fully willing and capable of giving… a…

No.. it's an option… I would say…

Yes, but it's an option that tends to be taken… Well, I'm just expressing a view here.

Yea, Okay.

You know, it may not be right for you…

You arrest people on reasonable grounds.

Yes.

Reasonable grounds isn't evidence. Evidence is a separate matter. You examine in the interview the evidence you have. The actual grounds for the arrest: for an officer to arrest someone are personal to that officer.

Ummm, that's fair enough. My concern is…

Regulated by what we call PACE, the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.

Yes, that's what I looked up, yes.

Hurm.. Hurm… Right. So.. I'm not going to ask you any more questions at this stage.

Okay

I'm just going to point out that I will be taking further statements, that this matter is under investigation.

Okay.

You are a suspect in this matter.

Yes.

You haven't been arrested. Er… I will be making a report to the Crown Prosecution Service.

Okay.

Er… To see er… what decision they will make, regarding, if any, charges are to be made. Do you understand that?

Yes.

Do you want to clarify any point we discussed?

Well, it's been quite a bit of time. We've concentrated quite a bit.

Yea.

I'm not sure. I'd like things to settle, before I'd be able to - have the capacity - to answer such a question. I can't think of anything right now, but it doesn't mean that I don't have questions.

No, I think that. I assure you that if I need to further interview you, I will invite you again to attend the station.

I'm talking about my questions since you asked me.

Okay… Erm… But, as I say, I'm gonna make a report to the CPS and also I guess some… further statements to er… rebut some of the things that you have said.

Okay.

To test out…

If its true or not.

And ask the witnesses who have provided me er… information whether what you're saying here was their opinion… Not their opinion… It happened𔆚

Sure.

So they get a chance now, to talk to me about what you said.

That's fair enough.

Alright? Is there anything further that you want to say?

Well, as I've just said, I've concentrated so much, that at this time - right now - I don't have any immediate thoughts.

You've got my telephone number.

Er… No, I don't actually.

(Someone gave me a shout… I don't know… didn't I give you) I'll give you my telephone number.

Yes please.

If there is anything you can give me to help you.

Well, as I say, I've given you this photocopy in advance of the…

Of the telephone.

… Of the post date.

Yea.

O, that's yours, is it?

Well, that's mine as well.

O, okay, O alright o, that's fine. I didn't know that was yours as well.
Yea.

You can get a copy. I think you said you wanted a copy of the actual letter.

Er… Well, I'll take a copy. It is written down, but not an actual copy… I'll just take a copy.

Please do.

When I escort you out.

Yes

Alright?

O, in a minute, okay.

I'm just going to terminate the interview now. The interview is terminated at 19:46 hours on Tuesday the 21st August 2008



THAT IS THE END OF THE TAPE TRANSCRIPT




Ref. M.050b
Bible quotes are from the New King James Version
© copyright Thomas Nelson Inc. 1979,1980,1982.
www.jarom.net
© copyright Jacques More 2023. All Rights reserved.